Comments for Canadian airmen graves in Old Weston

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Canadian airmen graves in Old Weston

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May 29, 2010
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Need a better image of the map....
by: Anonymous

Hi there, Cathy Farr, and all of those of you who have taken the time and trouble to put me right about the church steeple story.

We've just arrived back in UK from a long vacation in Oregon, and this is the first time I've had the chance to see the updates. This time, I'm asking a favour - that is, to have a better image of the crash-site map so that I can plot it correctly on Google Earth. If you care to send it to my home email address that's fine by me - here it is - tadecfoley[at]aol.com.

Best wishes

Terry [tac] Foley

Apr 01, 2010
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Thank you!
by: Cathy Farr

Hello MWO Jorg Adler

On behalf of the family of Flight Sergeant Don Lindsey, thank you so much for conducting your Remembrance Day service where my uncle and the rest of the flight crew are buried.

My Mum, Don Lindsey's sister, asked about his grave site a few weeks ago. I was able to tell her that Don and the others are very well looked after. That was before I knew about your ceremony. Mum will be most appreciative.

Yes, I would like to see your pictures.

There are some photos of Uncle Don in the "What's New" section of this website - the entry dated December 16th, 2009.

Cathy Farr

Mar 31, 2010
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Thank you!
by: Carol

That would be fantastic. If you would make contact via the Contact Us page on this site, then I will write back with an e-mail address that you can send the photos to.

I will then add them to the site.

Thank you for this, that would be terrific.

Carol

Mar 31, 2010
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Canadians at Molesworth
by: MWO Adler

I just wanted to post for those concerned and intersted about the four RCAF graves that since 2006 Canadian Forces members have returned to the RAF Molesworth base and since 2008 we now number four. Since that time we have conducted our own little Remembrance Day ceremony at the church cemetary in uniform and planting crosses and Canadian flags at the grave markers. My plan would see this continue as long as we are stationed here although I will be departing this year and my replacement will have to make that final decision. If someone can tell me how and where I would be more than happy to share some photos with all of you and in the hopes that some would make it back to the surviving family members.

MWO Jorg Adler
Command Sergeant Major
IFC
RAF Molesworth

Mar 31, 2010
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Link removed
by: Carol

Steve, I take your point about the pub not being the Swan and I have removed that link. Good catch!

Thank you for your input.

Mar 31, 2010
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The Importance of correcting a myth
by: Steve T

..May I add that last year my father showed me an article from a British Magazine. Not an aviation magazine and likely SAGA magazine.

Someone actually got a story printed on the back of the Hampden having crashed into the Church tower at St Swithins.

As they were likely paid for that story I believe that adds extra importance to getting this right.

Mar 31, 2010
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Re: The Hampden
by: Steve T

It is good that with Cathy Farr's comments and the comments of the Church Warden a more accurate picture of the loss of these men has been formed.

However, I note in Cathy Farr's story a link from the word PUB leads to The Swan pub. I feel this is a further inaccuracy. Sergeant Lindsey's aircraft took off from RAF Upper Heyford, Oxfordshire. That is where the Operational Training Unit he was at was based. He is unlikely to have ever drunk in the Swan pub.

X/C in the context of his logbook denotes "Cross-Country".

Regards
Steve Turner

Dec 08, 2009
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help
by: bethany turner

hello my name is bethany turner im 11 and and tryiny to track down my real grandads name you see he never met his dad and took his step dads name in all i know is that he was a candian who worked in the raf molesworth can you please all give me some help. thanks for reading

Dec 06, 2009
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Canadian Airmen's Graves
by: Anonymous

I have reviewed the comments previously posted, and have the following to add:

1. When Mum (Don Lindsey's sister) told me the story many years ago, she mentioned dense fog.
2. Uncle Don's log book shows that the Hampden took off on March 25th, 1942 at 2120 hours. The plane flew for 3.25 hours. Under "Remarks" there is the notation "X/C."
3. There is a blueprint showing the crash and burial sites. The blueprint shows that the crash took place at Polebrook at 12:45 A.M. on March 26th, 1942.

Cathy Farr

Dec 06, 2009
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Thanks
by: Thelma Coles

It is good to see that the Airman's graves are still being well looked after.
Whilst she was alive, my mother-in-law, Dorothy Coles used to look after the graves and after her death my husband Robin and I used to bring a wreath at Christmas time to put on their graves when we visited our family graves. Dorothy used to correspond with the mother of Seargent Lindsey but that is all a long time ago as Dorothy died in 1961.
Robin and I are pleased to see that so many people have responded to the question of what happened all those years ago and the picture is coming much clearer now.
Thank you to all who have responded so far.

Dec 05, 2009
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Canadian Airmen's Graves
by: Cathy Farr

Thank you Maggie, Terry, Robin's parents,and others, for looking after the graves of Sergeants O'Leary, Dobbie, Boyce, and Lindsey.

I am touched and grateful that Uncle Don (Lindsey)is so well looked after.

Mum, Mary Lindsey, still finds the subject of Uncle Don's death upsetting, and she does not say much about it. She so loved her big brother. I know that he was in her thoughts when she attended a Remembrance Day service, here in Canada, on November 11th. She mentioned him then.

When my Grandmother visited after the war, her intention was to take Uncle Don back to the United States, where she lived. However, she came to the conclusion that she could do no more for him than had already been done.

Once again, thank you.

Cathy Farr

Nov 25, 2009
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Canadian Airman Graves
by: Anonymous

Dear terry,

With reference to your email today I think you will find attached that I did in deed respond to your original email, please see below, I am sorry if this did not reach you?

Maggie Henderson
Clerk Old Weston parish Council.
-----Original Message-----
From: Maggie [mailto:maggie.henderson2@btinternet.com]
Sent: 27 October 2009 20:16
To: 'tadecfoley@aol.com'
Subject: RE: Submission from

Dear Terry,

I have been doing a little research and found some interesting information for you, I am sorry to say that the information you have is incorrect.

Two gentleman that lived in the village when the plane went down and still reside here know first hand it seems, it did not actually come down in Old Weston in came down in Thurning around 1941. (or very early 40s)

No one knows why it came down only that four casualties, the Canadians, were involved.

The steeple on the church had already been replaced when they moved to the village in 1934 because of a lightening strike so there is no connection with the plane at all; the debris in the grounds of the church was off of a posh grave with a fancy stone that fell off so again no connection.

One of the Canadians, surname Lindsey, had a Mum called fanny Lindsey who came to stay with these two gentleman and their family for three months after the war, they came from Battle Creek in Michigan and apparently still have family there that they keep in touch with.

There are two thoughts of why the four Canadians were not actually buried in Thurning Church, one was the yard was full so Old Weston was asked to take them the second thought was that the vicar/pastor at the time was a little strict and as he didn�t know what religion the Canadians were he refused to bury them in his church yard so again the vicar at old Weston was asked being nearer to Molesworth where they flew from.

My husband and I walk up to the church almost every Sunday evening and often look at those four graves and think of the families that never saw their loved ones again, its nice to know there are others that think of them too.

I hope this information helps.

Kind regards

Maggie Henderson

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Nov 25, 2009
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Submitted by: Anonymous

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Comment
Dear terry, With reference to your email today I think you will find attached that I did in deed respond to your original email, please see below, I am sorry if this did not reach you? Maggie Henderson Clerk Old Weston parish Council. -----Original Message----- From: Maggie [mailto:maggie.henderson2@btinternet.com] Sent: 27 October 2009 20:16 To: 'tadecfoley@aol.com' Subject: RE: Submission from Dear Terry, I have been doing a little research and found some interesting information for you, I am sorry to say that the information you have is incorrect. Two gentleman that lived in the village when the plane went down and still reside here know first hand it seems, it did not actually come down in Old Weston in came down in Thurning around 1941. (or very early 40s) No one knows why it came down only that four casualties, the Canadians, were involved. The steeple on the church had already been replaced when they moved to the village in 1934 because of a lightening strike so there is no connection with the plane at all; the debris in the grounds of the church was off of a posh grave with a fancy stone that fell off so again no connection. One of the Canadians, surname Lindsey, had a Mum called fanny Lindsey who came to stay with these two gentleman and their family for three months after the war, they came from Battle Creek in Michigan and apparently still have family there that they keep in touch with. There are two thoughts of why the four Canadians were not actually buried in Thurning Church, one was the yard was full so Old Weston was asked to take them the second thought was that the vicar/pastor at the time was a little strict and as he didn�t know what religion the Canadians were he refused to bury them in his church yard so again the vicar at old Weston was asked being nearer to Molesworth where they flew from. My husband and I walk up to the church almost every Sunday evening and often look at those four graves and think of the families that never saw their loved ones again, its nice to know there are others that think of them too. I hope this information helps. Kind regards Maggie Henderson

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Nov 25, 2009
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Canadians in Old Weston
by: tac foley

For the last twenty-something years, I have made a special point of visiting these four graves, generally keeping them tidy, and whenever I am here in UK at the appropriate time paying my respects on Remembrance Day, as I did again this year, leaving my little crosses from our two families. As a former member of the 'Maple Leaf Heritage/L'Heritage d'Erables', i take a keen interest in any and all local Canadian graves from both world wars.

Living not far away in Alconbury Weston, I, too, had heard the story of how the aircraft, having knocked off the top section of the spire, crashed nearby killing all on-board, and have tried to get to the bottom of it by writing to the 'contact us' section of this page - to no avail.

Any pointers to the official history, or where I might get access to the actual RAF crash records, would be much appreciated. As my home phone number is ex-directory, any response would have to be either on this page, or from the person dealing with the 'Contact us' page, who has so far ignored me.

T A de C Foley
Alconbury Weston

Jun 18, 2009
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RE: The spire story
by: Steve T

In my opinion this story needs thrashing out to find out what elements of it are true.

Ultimately if an RAF (or USAAF) aircraft was responsible for damaging the church then I would expect them to have paid for the damage.

If the Hampden clipped the church and that is why it crashed you may have expected that to feature in the incident reporting in the (usually comprehensive) Bomber Command Losses edition quoted. It has to be recorded somewhere if the RAF had to pay for the damage.

One last comment, the spire in the church yard seems to have no design comparison with rest of the tower. How old is it?

Although it is probably on the strength of information provided by the base, the Keith Hill painting of a B-17 returning to Molesworth shows the church with the spire missing. I intend to check that with the artist.

ST

Apr 23, 2009
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War Graves in Churchyard
by: Julie Chobrzynska

I would also dispute the RAF Molesworth story. I am one of the Church Wardens and hold records going back to 1901.

We recently found an extract from �The Royal Air Force Bomber Command Losses� Vol. 7 Operational Training Units 1940-1947 by W. R. Chorley, gives the following Information:

1942. From 16 O.T.U. Hampden mk l aircraft serial number P122 1 took off from Upper Heyford for a night navigation sortie around 00:45. The Hampden flew into the ground at high speed, roughly 4 miles south of Polebrook Airfield in Northamptonshire. All were laid to rest in Old Weston (St. Swithun) church yard.

After checking with the War Graves Commission and they advised that buriels were spread around local churchs. At the time they paid the church to take care of the graves at a rate of �1 per year per grave.

3 weeks after the incident in 1942 there was a 'Vestry Meeting' at the church and there was no mention of the spire being hit, but did state that they would "urge the RAF to extend the churchyard as a burying place for casualties". As the records contain facts like 'church stove not working' and "porch in need of repair", my sense is that if the spire was damaged then it would get a mention.

The next time the RAF is mentioned at all is in 1945 when they asked permission to put a sodium flare on the spire....had there been another incident to prompt this??

Looking through records from 1901, I can find no mention of repairs to the spire, in 1930, 31 and 32 there were comments about of repairs to the roof and tower.....could that have been it? There was certainly no major expenditure itemised as repair to the spire (although repairs to stove cost �7 16s 11p!).

At this stage I cannot find any reference to work on the spire other than some in the late 80s but will continue to dig....

Julie Chobrzynska
Church Warden

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Apr 23, 2009
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Submitted by: Julie Chobrzynska

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I would also dispute the RAF Molesworth story. I am one of the Church Wardens and hold records going back to 1901. We recently found an extract from �The Royal Air Force Bomber Command Losses� Vol. 7 Operational Training Units 1940-1947 by W. R. Chorley, gives the following Information: 1942. From 16 O.T.U. Hampden mk l aircraft serial number P122 1 took off from Upper Heyford for a night navigation sortie around 00:45. The Hampden flew into the ground at high speed, roughly 4 miles south of Polebrook Airfield in Northamptonshire. All were laid to rest in Old Weston (St. Swithun) church yard. After checking with the War Graves Commission and they advised that buriels were spread around local churchs. At the time they paid the church to take care of the graves at a rate of �1 per year per grave. 3 weeks after the incident in 1942 there was a 'Vestry Meeting' at the church and there was no mention of the spire being hit, but did state that they would "urge the RAF to extend the churchyard as a burying place for casualties". As the records contain facts like 'church stove not working' and "porch in need of repair", my sense is that if the spire was damaged then it would get a mention. The next time the RAF is mentioned at all is in 1945 when they asked permission to put a sodium flare on the spire....had there been another incident to prompt this?? Looking through records from 1901, I can find no mention of repairs to the spire, in 1930, 31 and 32 there were comments about of repairs to the roof and tower.....could that have been it? There was certainly no major expenditure itemised as repair to the spire (although repairs to stove cost �7 16s 11p!). At this stage I cannot find any reference to work on the spire other than some in the late 80s but will continue to dig.... Julie Chobrzynska Church Warden

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Mar 05, 2009
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Reply to 'The Story of Boston ' by Carol Leather'
by: Robin Coles

I have read to extract from Moleworth Airfield and it does not fit the facts. I would point out that the canadian airman in the graves died in 1942 acoording to their gravestones and the entries in the National Burial register so how could they possibly have been killed in 1945?

Also evidence points to that spire was in the churchyard prior to 1934 so it hardly fell off in 1945. The visible repair of the spire must be of a later date.

Mar 05, 2009
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The story of the Boston
by: Carol Leather

I have investigated the story of the damage to the church spire and added a page to the site explaining what happened.

The information was given to the village by RAF Molesworth. I hope it helps your research.

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